Home > Mouthwash > Trapped in Amber

Trapped in Amber

Last time I checked in with you guys about Mouthwash, I mentioned that I was no longer sure I wanted to use D&D-style dice rolls to determine skill effects, but didn’t know what to replace it with. On Twitter, Stephen Winson suggested I look into a diceless tabletop roleplaying system based on Roger Zelazny’s fantasy series The Chronicles of Amber. So I did.

It’s called the Amber Diceless Roleplaying Game, created by Erick Wujcik, and I was taken with it pretty much immediately. I read through the manual over the last couple of weeks and came away pretty intrigued by the concept. (If not by Zelazny’s books, which appear to be remarkably awful if the excerpts in the game manual are representative.) There’s a lot to the system, and much of it isn’t something I’m interested in copying. But I love how it handles determining the success of actions without using dice. Having read the manual, it’s actually both simpler and more nuanced than how it’s described in the Wikipedia page.

Here’s the basic idea: anytime a character tries to do something and is opposed by another character, you look at the difference between their relevant stats. The amount of that difference determines the extent of the effect. So, for example, if they’re wrestling and character X tries to break character Y’s neck, you compare X and Y’s Strength attribute. The Game Master (GM) might determine the outcome as follows:

  • X is a lot stronger than Y:  Y is killed outright.
  • X is a little stronger than Y:  Y is badly hurt, but not killed.
  • X and Y are equally strong: Y is hurt, but still has a chance to fight X off.
  • X is a little weaker than Y:  Y is unharmed, and X loses his footing.
  • X is a lot weaker than Y: Y is unharmed and gets X is badly hurt in retaliation.

As I said on Twitter and in comments on the last post, I suspect that in practice, with a human GM, this probably results in the GM deciding whatever and a lot of subsequent arguing. But with a computer taking the role of the GM, this sounds fantastic to me! In a way, this is what D&D-style systems do in a very roundabout way. If your stats match up poorly against an opponent, you’re more likely to miss or do very little damage; if they match up favorably, you’re more likely to do a lot of damage. Amber just does that in a deterministic way, rather than using probability represented by the dice roll. As of now, I plan to adopt a similar system in Mouthwash: ranked versions of every skill effect that are selected based on stat disparity.

My new obsession has led to a lot of debates with my boyfriend about what it means to abandon the element of randomness in a game like this. He’s more skeptical about the idea than I am, and worries that an essentially deterministic system will inevitably lead to players finding a single optimal path and running for it. To which I say, eh. I’d rather make that path hard to get to by designing a complex system, rather than introducing a bunch of randomness. After all, the randomness in a D&D game is there to represent all the subtle environmental factors that a human Dungeon Master can’t hope to calculate. The more well-simulated that environment gets in a computer game, the less necessary the dice rolls become. If your character can physically move around a space with a complex shadow-and-lighting model, and you can simulate the visibility of the character to NPCs using that model, then you don’t really need to roll dice for stealth checks. What does the dice roll add at that point?

So since I’m going to all this trouble to simulate a complex social environment in Mouthwash, dice rolls don’t appeal to me. There’s also another problem: randomness in a combat game adds unpredictability to a world, but randomness in Mouthwash would add unpredictability to characters. Unpredictability in characters is pretty easy to read as “poor characterization.” For that reason alone I’m pretty set on using an Amber-like system.

Of course, that means I’m putting a pretty heavy burden on the complexity of the game system. And that’s starting to give me headaches. Complexity is great, but only when it feels like the system hangs together tightly. Otherwise it’s just chaos. So far I haven’t thought seriously about how to get things to hang together. How do emotions affect viewpoints? How do viewpoints affect goals? Where do relationships fit in? I’ve just been designing all these separate pieces in a pretty divergent way, and not looking at the big picture. That’ll have to change.

The holy grail is that system that’s easy to learn and hard to master, and fun to experiment with in between. Manageable complexity. That means a big picture that a player can easily grasp with lots of interesting details that aren’t obvious right away. It’s a tall order, but one that I’ll be better off working out sooner rather than later. So what’s the big picture of Mouthwash? More on that when I figure it out!

Categories: Mouthwash
  1. Ari
    November 19, 2011 at 11:54 PM | #1

    The best feeling I get when designing is when all the different elements just seem to fall into place, as if the game is somehow designing itself. This system just blends in with that system; this solution perfectly addresses these problems; your design starts to work for you, rather than against you. Sounds like you’re starting to get there in Mouthwash.

  2. November 20, 2011 at 12:19 AM | #2

    Not much outside the broadly strategic end of the RPG format uses true randomness in any meaningful way anymore. MMOs do, to an extent, but eliminating random factors is a large part of the gearing/skill choice strategy in all of them I’ve ever played. In WoW, eliminating randomness altogether is an explicit part of the metagame, with soft capping hit rating mandatory (unless you’re some specific class/spec combo where the math works out that hit doesn’t matter as much, like feral dps was when I left the game) and until Cataclysm stacking defense rating to get to crit immunity, or block and dodge and parry rating to get “unhittable” sets for particular encounters.

    Sure, lots of things have random damage amounts, and chances for critical hits, but that tends to be the extent of it. If you point at it, you hit it, and you’ll be pretty sure of what will happen when you hit.

    As far as avoiding an optimal build situation, the best defense against that is a little thing I like to call “good encounter design.” If you give your players a selection of tools with different uses but present them with a field of nails, it will not be a flaw with the system of tools that you put together that causes every player with half a brain putting all their points into the “Hammer Awesomeness” skill.

    • November 20, 2011 at 2:07 PM | #3

      Heh, good encounter design is still a ways down the road. Right now I’m just hoping to keep the player’s toolbox from looking like this, nails or no nails.

  3. Dan Cox
    November 20, 2011 at 1:45 AM | #4

    I was hoping you might pick the Amber system — at least for now. It /seems/ a good match for what you are doing. I have some problems with it from a programmer’s point of view though.

    For a system with a DM — like D&D — this probably works really well. If there is ever a dispute, the ‘Golden Rule’ (DM is *always* right) kicks in and most problems can be settled easily. However, this becomes an interesting problem in code. Will the code *always* be right? How is “right” going to be measured?

    Most of my eye-raising comes about in using this system in combination with the the phrase “but still has a chance to fight X off” and the relatively terms “a lot” and “a little”. This might become very complicated very quickly in defining those terms and especially in trying to render “chance” (e.g. random(7) in Java for 0…6) out of the equation.

    I assume you are thinking of using distances as a measurement, right? That is, the “a little” is within the window of 5 points (for example) while the “a lot” might be a window of 15 points from the original X. Say that happens: does that mean a proportionality is created between the distance Y is away from X? That is, is “damage” a function of the distances between the two numbers? (This is probably answered in the manual somewhere, I imagine.)

    My other question deals with the “a chance” phrase. What does that mean here? I thought the Amber system was created to avoid using dice to solve problems. Is it that the DM decides what “a chance” means or that some random() call is made for that? (I apologize for being nit-picky here, but I spent some time the other night thinking about this problem and was not satisfied by my own answers to it. I could not find a way around using random() at some point in a software system.)

    Getting back to design, what stops the player — especially in Amber — from using other skills/attributes? You had said, in that other post, that battles might be prolonged “by introducing a tactic that turns the conflict into something ruled by another attribute, or by doing some crazy-ass magic thing.” Will you be stopping that somehow? (Perhaps by having some metric in which using skills lowers it — like a mana bar or something — so that ultimately there is a limit, within some time period, of the number of uses?)

    Another problem — I’m sorry for my long comments! — is this: “*if* you know your listener’s stats, you can predict the outcome of your actions with a lot of confidence” (emphasis added). I’m interested in how you go about determining that.

    In D&D, to my limited knowledge (never played), it means that there is a high degree of trust between people and the DM. If a player says they have an AC of a certain number, say 20 for example, it means they honestly have that. Have you thought of a way — that is not automated — for such information to pass between people? Wasn’t Empathy somehow related to determining other agent’s emotional states? (That might have been just my own example.) Will such states be easily recognizable for tactical decisions? (That might be a question for a future post on the topic.)

    I agree that the complexity will be a problem. I considered working out some of what you had said in other posts in Java the other night and spent awhile just trying to figure out base classes. I wish you the best of luck with this.

    • November 20, 2011 at 2:49 PM | #5

      Good questions. I haven’t worked out the implementation details yet, and you’re getting at some of the points that need to be made more concrete. Let me take these one at a time.

      First of all, what do I mean by things like “a chance” in an Amberesque system? Here’s what I’m thinking, as a basic outline. When you try a skill, there are a few different possible outcomes, which I see as discrete for now. There’s X>>Y, or outright success: the skill does what you want it to, with a bonus. X>Y is regular success: the skill does what you want it to. X=Y: the skill does a lesser version of what you want it to. X<Y: skill doesn't do what you want it to, and you take a penalty. So let’s say you’re, oh, Flirting. X’s Charm is compared to Y’s Composure, based on a given threshold of the distance, to determine the outcome. The outcomes might be:
      - X>>Y: Y’s attraction to X increases, and Y enters a Aroused state.
      - X>Y: Y’s attraction to X increases.
      - X=Y: Y likes X a little better, but attraction is unaffected.
      - X<Y: Y likes X a little less.
      - X<<Y: Y likes X a little less, and enters an Annoyed state.

      When I talk about the target having a chance to retaliate or what have you, I mean that X is made vulnerable by the penalty incurred for failure. Now that Y is Annoyed, he'll be able to automatically block a lot of X's moves.

      To your next question, what stops the player from jumping to another attribute in Amber? So in a tabletop situation, that's all up to the discretion of the GM. Wujcik does discuss it in the manual, in the context of like, a swordfight (based on Warfare) where someone grapples the other guy (turning it into a contest of Strength). Wujcik doesn't have any interest in preventing that kind of tactical shifting, provided the GM considers it a plausible move. Why would you?

      And finally, how do agents and players figure out other people's stats? As you guess, it's mostly about skills targeted at detecting information about people. I mean, you can ask people about themselves (and they may be honest or not). You can use Empathy-driven skills to detect stats and emotional states more subtly. Some of these skills may be passive. So let's say you've got a Detect Stats skill running in the background. If the target uses a skill based on a certain statistic, and your Empathy beats their Composure, you learn the value of that stat. After a few turns you can build up a good model of the target. Of course, they could be pretending to have a different personality using a passive skill of their own, in which case your Empathy goes up against their Charm to determine whether you get the fake stat or the real one…

      Stuff like that!

  1. November 29, 2011 at 7:55 PM | #1

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